Tuesday, 13 November 2012

Roots of Saankhya Shaastra - 2

A sample of one Saankhya-Sutra termed Srusti Rahasya Sutra given by Agastya Muni to his Shishya Nagadhara was posted to Foundation for Indian Scientific Heritage for scholars to put forth their analysis:

यवै शार्धूल खण्डितपदा मण्डित पण्डितोद्दण्ड
युववयोवृद्धि
समृद्धि तोलतूला तुलायन्त्रै
यवनिकाकेश
वृद्धिबल कोदण्ड सप्तस्य प्रसंख्या वाघे योजितः |
यावोज्वल
निखण्ड खण्ड बाजै नरमण्डलमण्डितै
यो
यो वो वान्त अक्षर स्थिरमूल मन्त्र बीज रुपैर्यद्देवता दृश्यन्ति
तन्मूलचैतन्य
सृष्टि रहस्यम् ||

[Hemanth Kumar G]

How do we translate this sir?

B.N.Gangadhar
Professor of Psychiatry
National Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences
Bangalore, 560029, India

That's why it is called Rahasya Sutra. It is in Saankhya System of Encoding. I am also in search of decoding technique. Expecting help from well versed Scholars. [Hemanth]
यो यो वो वान्त अक्षर स्थिरमूल मन्त्र बीज रुपैर्यद्देवता दृश्यन्ति
तन्मूलचैतन्य सृष्टि रहस्यम्
It is here we begin, to reach here, we have traversed through the reverse time scale. This understanding and realization is the beginning of all beginnings, and the end of all the ends. [Krishnakumar M B]

This is a Saankhya Sutra which is a combination of several Samikaranas. It will be normally decoded by first conversion to particular base system. Then finding the best suited Vedic Samikaranas and solving them. As quoted, Nagadhara took several years to decode the series of these kind of Sutras. As soon as Agasthya Muni gave first sutra,
Nagadhara went for Tapasya in an hurry. But came back due to forest fire. So, Agasthya muni restricted him to be in Ashrama for 7 years and do the Go-seva after which he got eligibility to listen to other sutras. The sutra under discussion is one among them. This also was kept in Upasana & Tapasya after which he got realization of this sutra. [Hemanth]

Thanks Hemanthji

[B.N.Gangadhar]

I thought of explaining it in Sankhya_akshara_naada_samyogam. But i felt it is not right. It is not to be done on a public platform. It has its en grooved format within itself. [Krishnakumar M B]

I am interested to know your method of Sankhya_akshara_naada_samyogam.
Can you send the explanation privately to my mail id? [Hemanth]

Dear Sree Hemantha Kumar,/arun Upadhyaya

You are providing excellent mode and right inputs to keep-up the Spiritual Enlightenment index.

I wish Scholars like You and Sree Arunji - do decipher Cosmological index. prof Mannem murty is known to me - He participtes in Yajnas as well.need to respect his mode of interaction- that forms a part link to bio-Energy Aura -see my books Drasta- drusti- drusyamu - is the backbone of indian Rishis-Sree [1008] Seetharama yathindrulu- Tunes to Hanuman- darsan Lord Sree Krishna and vaikuntha Nath
this is a reality-Under Inspiration and Dedication, I do my projections.AJNANA TIMIRA ADITYAM HARI BHAKTI PRABHODAKAM.

The Spirit of Scientific Research: Cosmology Vedas–Unity in Diversity: Vidyardhi Nanduri-   TXU 1-731-982-SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY[S&T] in Ancient Indian Texts-Seminar-Indic Studies,2010 see- Hindu Cosmology in consonance with modern science- Key talk by me-Ttirupati-feb 2007- available in book form- 60-80 PPT projections

The Spirit of Scientific Research: Cosmology Vedas–Unity in Diversity: Vidyardhi Nanduri-   TXU 1-731-982-SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY[S&T] in Ancient Indian Texts-Seminar-Indic Studies,2010 
[about 80 PPT projections]

This forum does not have ethics to keep a set of books- Invite scholars of Eminence to Take knowledge vase to Knowledge Expansion. International issues are a complete separate frame that needs orientation- Cosmology East West Centers of excellence.

Mundane scholars -self-ego boosters have less scope -unless open mind dawns upon for new perspectives.- India has to go a long way. Original Works means copyrights- followers can be many. We need to cultivate disciplines dialogues and objectivity with with a purpose.

Be aware that you are providing all useless psycho-arguments that do not stand to reason - Inadequacy of Perception -needs Vision Development. MATI-DHRUTi- de Bhagavan-through grace of Om sree hanuman- Dattam sree Sesha Sai we are small species in this Vast kNowledge- JNANA SAGARAM is a Higher Plane. need to define in log-scale Light years for Scientific Community at large That is what I do -Cosmology World Peace.I conduct Workshops- Help promote the spirit of 

Interaction- science, Philosophy., Religion.
NEWS- VED INFORMATICS- JULY 2012 ISSUE   - PP 15-16
MMMIVU’s-Ved Informatics_july_2012
THE SCIENCE OF COSMOLOGY AND VEDAS : UNITY IN DIVERSITY

Kind regards
DR Vidyardhi NANDURI


I though I should provide my thoughts on the Srushti Rahasya Sutra. Please see below my thoughts and interpretation 

Indian spiritualists, the great Vedic seers, realized the truth of the creation by their spiritual quest, verified it further by their scientific inquiries and created a framework of synergy between Science and Spirituality (Jyaan Vijyaan Samahita), with which the ancient Indian Vedic civilization was enriched with the profound wisdom of Oneness of Atman. The famous Isha Upnishad of the Rig Veda proclaims 

Om Purnamadah Purnamidam Puurnnaat-Purnam-Udachyate, Purnashya Purnam-Aadaaya Purnam-Eva-Avashissyate || Om Shantih Shantih Shantih ||”

It is this concept of the purna that is central to India’s synthesis of Science and Spiritual quest. And the same is also the basis of the first law of thermodynamics of the modern science. The only difference is that while the modern science is yet to find the answer between the oneness of matter and energy as it is struggling to find why there is no mass in energy particles, rays and waves while matter full of energy has a quantifiable mass. This dilemma does not exist in India’s synthesis of Science and Spirituality as it firmly focuses on the concept of Purna, both in matter and energy. In simple terms, it means that as per ancient India’s integral perception of Science and Spirituality the energy can manifest in matter and vice-versa. In this lies integral view, lies the secret of creation according to India’s quest for Science and Spirituality. Modern science has learnt how to get energy out of matter but still to learn how to transform energy into matter. Is it not true that nature transforms energy into matter every spilt second and vice-versa? The secret of creation is so beautifully narrated in the famous Srushti Rahasya Sutra by Agastya Muni:

यवै शार्धूल खण्डितपदा मण्डित पण्डितोद्दण्ड
युववयोवृद्धि समृद्धि तोलतूला तुलायन्त्रै
यवनिकाकेश वृद्धिबल कोदण्ड सप्तस्य प्रसंख्या वाघे योजितः |
यावोज्वल निखण्ड खण्ड बाजै नरमण्डलमण्डितै
यो यो वो वान्त अक्षर स्थिरमूल मन्त्र बीज रुपैर्यद्देवता दृश्यन्ति
तन्मूलचैतन्य सृष्टि रहस्यम् ||

Here, the keywords to note are: Dhool, Khadit Pada Mandit Pandita, Taul Tula Yantraye, Saptasya Prashankhya, Yavo-jvala, Nikhand Khand, Akshar, Sthir. Mool, Tan, Mool, Chaitanya.

The Sutra proclaims that Scientifically, the matter must be continually divided into two equal parts, with accuracy using a balance (Tula-Yantra) at least Seven Crores (Saptasya Prasankhya) times till it becomes a fine particle like that of dust (Dhool). Then, at this stage, it (the dust particle) glows like a photon, indivisible further (Yavo-jvala Nikhand Khand). Then, the difference between  matter and energy is lost and it is here lies the secret of Srushti. It is here lies the truth of matter and energy and it then makes sense to declare that all and everything, jar or chetanya are all eternal, akshar. It is how the secret of the creation of Srushti was perceived by the devtaas, i.e, the divine seers and sages, the scientists of the Ancient India who practiced the Science and Spiritual quest together.

Excerpts from my paper on Creating Capabilties and Values in the Knowledge Age - Role of Science and Spirituality for the AISSQ Conference at IISc, Bangalore, Sept 2012. 
Trust you will find it of interest to go deeper into the Sutra.
Warm Regards,

PROF. P.B. SHARMA
PhD(Birmingham) FIE, FAeroS,FWAPS
Vice Chancellor
Delhi Technological University
(Formerly Delhi College of Engineering)
Shahbad Daulatpur, Bawana Road
Opposite Rohini Sector - 17
Delhi - 110042


नमः परम ऋषिभ्यो नमः परम ऋषिभ्यः 
ब्रह्मविद्यासंप्रदायकर्तृभ्यो वंशऋषिभ्यः 
नमो अथर्वान्गीरसाय ब्रह्मविद्या   वरिष्ठाय  
Respected Research Scholars,

>नरमण्डलमण्डितै यो यो वो वान्त अक्षर स्थिरमूल मन्त्र बीज रुपैर्यद्देवता दृश्यन्ति
तन्मूलचैतन्य सृष्टि रहस्यम् ||
The highlighted groups of terms draw our attention for the following reasons.
वो वान्त अक्षर = within us,दृश्यन्तिare seen, in the medium of AKSHARA, which is the carrier of 
 स्थिरमूल मन्त्र बीज रुपैर्यद्देवता mantra, beeja, roopa of the DEVATA = formula/pattern; potentials; structure;
of devata is contextual and can mean yet to be identified spectra of light, a light which responds to our mind.
नरमण्डलमण्डितै  where within us can these be seen? In the mazes of MANDALAS of NARA
neurons of the BRAIN. 
Needless to mention that this seeing is possible ONLY from within through the practices/exercises in the 
PARNA SHALA lab set up [not a romantic utopia] which can replicate the Vedic ambiance.
THIS REQUIRES GOSHAALA AND AGNISHAALA.
Incidentally, the content of this post contains part of my response to Dr.B.V.K Sastri's call to would-be 
research guides of Yoga Samskrutam University.
It is necessary to go for a mindmapping of the Vedic Research Methodology of which encoding
and decoding of such texts are advanced processes of knowledge management.
तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय !

[Dr. S. Ramakrishna Sharma]


Thoughts of Pritam ji and Ramakrishna ji are wonderful and probably their combination will give insight into secret of creation.

There are 7 lokas, but 13 Vishvas and 14 Bhuta-sargas in Sankhya.
Nara (Purusha) is man and Universe (or its Creator) both.

Starting with man, there are 5 gross words, each 10 power 7 times bigger than the previous. Intermediate zones are called layers of air, each 10 times bigger than previous. Only one of 6 derivations is given below-

रविचन्द्रमसोर्यावन्मयूखैरवभास्यते ।स समुद्र सरिच्छैला पृथिवी तावती स्मृता ।३।
यावत्प्रमाणा पृथिवी विस्तार परिमण्डलात् । नभस्तावत्प्रमाणं वै व्यास मण्डलतो द्विज ।४। (विष्णु पुराण, २/७/३,४)

(3) The zone lighted by sun and moon is Pŗthivī (earth) and in all the earths-ocean, rivers and mountains are stated as on planet earth. 

(a) Planet earth-It is lighted by sun and moon both and it has all-ocean, rivers and mountains.

(b) Maitreya-maņɖala-It is the zone exclusively lighted by sun. Zones formed by planetary orbits are  described as continents and oceans of same name as on earth.

(c) Galaxy-This is the last limit up to which sun can be seen as a point- Definition of Brahmāņɖa in Sūrya-siddhānta (12/90). In this earth also, central rotating disc is called a river-Ākāśa-gangā.

(4) Whatever is the size of earth by diameter and circumference, the same is diameter and circumference  of its sky, starting from earth.. Stated by Maitreya to Parāśara, addressed as Dvija (Brāhmaņa).

(a)Planet earth-Its measure should start from human size, which is implied but not stated. Earth is limit (Koţi) of world for man and its size is 107 times, so Koţi = 107 . For earth also, its Koţi of world is solar system  which is its sky and is 107 times bigger.

(b) For Maitreya-maņɖala, its sky or Koţi is galaxy and is 107 times bigger.

(c) For the largest earth galaxy, its sky is universe. This is infinite, but is taken in same ratio of Koţi = 107 .

Thus the 5 levels of Viśva starting with man are successively 107 times bigger.
107 = 224 and 24 is number of letters in Gāyatrī chhanda, so it is said that is measure of all the Lokas.

    x 107 = 224               x 107 = 224                           x 107 = 224                    x 107 = 224
Man               Earth              Solar system     Galaxy            Universe

यमेव (पृथिवी) गायत्री-जैमिनीय उपनिषद् ब्राह्मण, १/५५/३, शतपथ ब्राह्मण, १/४/१/३४, ताण्ड्य महा ब्राह्मण, ७/३/११) गायत्र्या वै देवा इमान् लोकान् व्याप्नुवन् (ताण्ड्य महा ब्राह्मण, १६/१४/४)
There are 7 lower worlds, successively smaller by 1 lakh times-
             1              2            3              4                                5                     6                 7 
           Kalila     Jīva      Kuņɖalinī    Jagat                   Deva-dānava     Pitara            Ŗşi
           (Cell)    (Atom)  (Nucleus) (Moving particles)    (Quarks ?)     (Proto-type)    (Strings)
Size 10-5 Meter , 10-10 Meter, 10-15 Meter, 10-20 Meter, 10-25 Meter, 10-30 Meter   10-35 Meter

Total  worlds are 13, so Viśva means 13. Viśva  is any system which is closed, complete and independent.

(१) कलिल-सर्व धातुं कलनीकृतः, अव्यक्त विग्रहः (तस्मात् कलिल) चरक संहिता, शरीरस्थान (४/९)

In womb, cell starts collecting all materials, so it is called kalila.

वालाग्रमात्रं हृदयस्य मध्ये विश्वं देवं जातरूपं वरेण्यं (अथर्वशिर उपनिषद् ५)
अनाद्यनन्तं कलिलस्य मध्ये विश्वस्य स्रष्टारमनेकरूपम् ।
विश्वस्यैकं परिवेष्टितारं ज्ञात्वा देवं मुच्यते सर्व पाशैः ॥ (श्वेताश्वतर उपनिषद्, ५/१३)

A cell also is a Viśva, which is enclosed (pariveşţita).

(२) वालाग्र शत साहस्रं तस्य भागस्य भागिनः ।तस्य भागस्य भागार्धं तत्क्षये तु निरञ्जनम् ॥ (ध्यानविन्दु उपनिषद् , ४)

Starting from man, hair-end is first smaller Viśva 100 thousand times smaller. There are 6 more levels smaller by same ratio. Smallest is Nirañjana (not perceived by any instrument, or mind)

(३) ऋषिभ्यः पितरो जाताः पितॄभ्यो देव दानवाः । देवेभ्यश्च जगत्सर्वं चरं स्थाण्वनुपूर्वशः॥ (मनुस्मृति, ३/२०१)
From Ŗşis, pitars were born; then Deva-dānava. All jagat was from Deva only. Devas are 33, Asuras are 99, so created universe is one-fourth only (Puruşa-sūkta 3,4). Jagat= moving particles are of 3 types-Chara=lepton,Sthāņu=Baryon, Anu-pūrva =Mesonic link particles.

(४) वालाग्र शत भागस्य शतधा कल्पितस्य च ॥ भागो जीवः स विज्ञेयः स चानन्त्याय कल्पते ॥ (श्वेताश्वतर उपनिषद्, ५/९)

Assume 100 parts of 100th part of hair end (micron size)= 10-10 Meter. That is Jīva, not destroyed in any chemical  change-all Kalpa =or creation is recombination of atoms only.

(५) षट्चक्र निरूपण, ७-एतस्या मध्यदेशे विलसति परमाऽपूर्वा निर्वाण शक्तिः कोट्यादित्य प्रकाशां त्रिभुवन-जननी कोटिभागैकरूपा । केशाग्रातिगुह्या निरवधि विलसत .. ।९। अत्रास्ते शिशु-सूर्यकला चन्द्रस्य षोडशी शुद्धा नीरज सूक्ष्म-तन्तु शतधा भागैक रूपा परा ।७।

Central nerve is 107 parts of hair-end. Kuņɖalinī is still 100 times smaller, equal to nucleus of atom = 10-15 meters

(६) असद्वा ऽइदमग्र ऽआसीत् । तदाहः – किं तदासीदिति । ऋषयो वाव तेऽग्रेऽसदासीत् । तदाहुः-के ते ऋषय इति । ते यत्पुराऽऽस्मात् सर्वस्मादिदमिच्छन्तः श्रमेण तपसारिषन्-तस्मादृषयः (शतपथ ब्राह्मण, ६/१/१/१)

In beginning, it was Asat  (invisible, beyond perception) only. That was Ŗşi. They pulled with force and energy, so  they were called Ŗşi =Rassi in Hindi (String).

Thus, in higher worlds, ratio is 7 (in powers of 10), in lower worlds, levels are 7.
Numbers of cells (neurons) in brain are equal to numbers of stars in our galaxy, or the numbers of galaxies in visible universe-all are 10 power 11, called Kharva (=collection of Dhuli). This is calculated in Shatapatha Brahmana (12/3/2/5). The number of Lomagartta (15 power 7 parts of 1 muhurtta) in 1 year is about 10power12. That is 10 times Bhumi, so Bhumi has 10 power 11 particles. Loma is hair on skin, its Gartta is cell. Shatapatha Brahmana 10/4/4/2) tells that number of lomagartta in 1 year is equal to number of Nakshatras in space and Urdhva. Nakshatras in galaxy are stars, in Urdhva formation of Universe, nakshatras are galaxies. With these 2 comments now we can have some quantitative idea.

[Arun Kumar Upadyay]

Dear scholars - Krishnakumarji, Arunji & Ramakrishnaji,
thank you for providing insights from your knowledge and experiences.

We have to explore more. The Nagadhara was the direct Janma of Yama, the representative of Dharma. This Sutra is so tough that the Yama who is well versed in Jeeva & Mruthyu Rahasya wasn't able to solve for years together. Only by Tapasya & Upaasana, he got the solution. It is encoded in Sankhyaa Samikarana but not Sankhyaa Akshara Samyoga. 84-87 Ganita Samikaranas are there in Vedas, out of which this sutra combines several of them. The Samikaranas are greatest keys to solve the Rahasyas. Among these 84-87 Samikaranas, Srinivasa Ramanujan was able to solve 2. The derivation steps of the same aren't fully understood till now. It uses entirely different system of Mathematics which is not commonly available now.

An example is Kumudendu Muni's Siribhuvalaya, which is encoded in terms of Samkya Akshara Samyoga Vidhi. A 27 x 27 numbered matrix (chakra) is said to get decoded into 712 languages including Praani-Bhaasha, Pakshi-Bhaasha, Brahmi, Kharoshti, Yavanani, Saindhava, Gandhara, Bolidi, Tibetan, Persian, etc., said to cover all branches of knowledge viz. Rasa Vidhya, Vaidhya, Ganitha, Khagola, Jyotisha, Ayurveda, Anu Vidhya, Puranas, Vedas, etc.,

1270 Chakras of this kind is available now. It is not just a product of human ingenuity, not just a clever achievement to marvel at. It is a remarkable endeavor to preserve precious knowledge for generations to come, and is inspired by a genuine devotion to knowledge and a sense of responsibility towards the future.

One can imagine the effort that this task of creating a single treasure-house of all these alphabets, languages and knowledge should have demanded. This work is, indeed, an encyclopedia in its own way.  He who plans such an encyclopedia has first himself to be a treasure-house of information and knowledge. He needs to be endowed with a computer-like brain. He must have the gift of a superb mind. He has to be creative, and needs the boon of a powerful imagination. And, even if the enterprising genius is adequately endowed in all these ways, what immense patience and effort does such a work demand! In terms of time, effort and energy, this must have been a most taxing endeavor. We feel both admiration and gratitude when we realize the magnitude and the complexity of the task that Kumudendu Muni undertook.

Similarly in the current shloka presented for analysis is directly from Tala-Patras in Brahmi to Kannada. It can be called as NP-Hard (non-deterministic polynomial-time hard), in computational complexity theory. The behavior of any physical system is governed by its underlying dynamical equations. Much of physics is concerned with discovering these dynamical equations and understanding their consequences.  Identifying the underlying dynamical equation from any amount of experimental data, however precise, is a provably computationally hard problem (it is NP-hard), both for classical and quantum mechanical systems.

This Shloka was encoded by Agastya Muni himself and Shishya was Nagadhara, the Yama-Dharma!! It is said that the knowledge attained after decoding this shloka enlightens the Saadhaka with the Srusti Rahasya.

[Hemanth Kumar G]

We should not insist that what is given by the commentators alone can be the methodology. Mysticism and symbolism that is found elsewhere should not be linked to the Vedic Configuration. It may be what others have understood or explored.

The basic understanding is the Nadam, the core of reverbations and vibrations and streamline the resultant radiant energy to a structure that forms the segments of Aksharam. If one cannot visualise the vedaksharam and its structural conformation with its dimensions, nothing can be understood . With the matras that give rise to words , it will be a literary and religious pursuits, which were not the main objectives of the progenitors of the Vedas. Sankhyam that you are mentioning is totally different.

I also traversed through these some 30 years back, tried to understand and realise what it is. Thereafter, i started my journey. I never would like to argue and establish whatever is coming to me.

But, I will like you to have a careful analysis of what is underlying in the process and explanation. i am not addressing the religious  angles, that is left for the religious leaders and its practitioners. It is only the technology as it is to be structured out. You being a technologist can understand it better.

[krishnakumar M B]

This shloka is not present in the current Veda Bhaaga!! The names Shloka & Mantra are different. For your kind information here no one is commentator between Agastya & Nagadhara! It is one kind of teaching in Guru-Shishya Paramparaa. The vast knowledge attained by Agastya Muni was condensed & compressed into this shloka by Saankya Samikarana Rachana Vidhi! It is purely mathematical concept which has its own method of encoding and particular method to decode the same! No mysticism here. Every math has its own symbols. So, Symbolism is obvious as it is mathematical. Veda Mantras are itself collection of symbols.

The Sankhya what has been mentioned is the original system used by the group who were also commonly called by Saankhyaas. It is not just the collection of some sutras which is available now as Sankhya Darshanam! Jagadguru Shankaracharya also proposed original Brahma Sutras as a collection 3 distinct methods termed as Sankhya-Traya.

If Jnana exits, it is only due to Karma. There is no self-existence of Jnaana-Khaanda without Karma-Khaanda. It’s true that Veda is Aksharam & Naadam. But, not only the way to study, understand & realize Vedas!!

There are other techniques like Sanjnaa-Vidhi, Rekha-Vidhi, Anu-Vidhi, Shabda-Vidhi, Vaakya-Vidhi, Upasana-Vidhi, etc., Shloka under consideration also uses a process called Deva-Darshana-Vidhi & BeejodGhatana-Vidhis, which is practical process, not just the bookish arguments in the name of Jnana-Khanda.

More details on Vedic Conceptions & misconceptions have been elaborated in:

[Hemanth Kumar G]

1.  The given text passage, as i see in typed mode here,  does not seem to me to be a ' totally Samskrutham grammar compliant document' .

Reason:  The sandhi  rules seem to be not observed. The expression  [-बाजै  ]  seems to be erratic. This could be a mahaparana letter, when the line would make some sense [-निखण्ड-खण्ड * भाजैः      ].   The word   [- वाघे ]seems to be erratic ' maharashtrian (? - language influence / scripting / articulation ? ) form,  for   [-वाजे ] - which is a vedic word for ' anna -bala'.

यवै शार्धूलखण्डितपदा मण्डितपण्डितोद्दण्ड-युववयोवृद्धि   समृद्धितोलतूला तुलायन्त्रै - यवनिकाकेश

वृद्धिबलकोदण्ड सप्तस्य प्रसंख्या वाघेयोजितः | यावोज्वल निखण्डखण्ड  बाजै नरमण्डलमण्डितै यो योवो 

  न्तअक्षर  स्थिरमूलमन्त्र बीजरुपैर्यद्देवता दृश्यन्ति तन्मूलचैतन्य सृष्टिरहस्यम् || >

 2.  The key to decode this, as pointed by Dr.Ramakrishna Sharma is in the last line. The sentence, reconstructed  and restructured would be  as follows :
 [-  अक्षर -स्थिर-   मूलमन्त्रबीज रू पैः   -   यद्देवताः  दृश्यन्तितन्मूलचैतन्यम् सृष्टिरहस्यम् ].
So what is the  decoding for the Akshara' s as Moola-Mantra-Beeja's , which point to the Devataa - tattva's; and the primary consciousness behind it ?

3.  This is a part of regular  conventions in Tantra / Siddha tradition in the streams of Kundalini Yoga, Srivdya,  where the panchabhoota tattvas related to  Vayu  ( yo )and Amruta /Jala tattva (vo) ::  the beeja-mantras which are sthira-aksaras ( after the transfromation of swara to vyanjana in Sandhi:   + + --> य्  +  ;   + --> व् +   ; + -->    ::  which is the transformation of Shiva/Consciousness to Shakti -Prakruti = Vyanjanas - a Transformation where Consciousness is the seed of manifest matter - processes; And this is recognized as CREATION /Cosmology. )  The combinations of these manifestations are to be managed in specified ways for the goal intended. Why? Horse is different from Donkey. 

These are part of the 'mantras' routinely deployed and repeated by the 'vaidikas' without getting any clue on what is ' Devataa -Prana-Pratishtaa  in the drvya /Mandala/Kalasha/ Pratimaa' in front of them. Contemplate the line <  मम प्राणाः देवता प्राणाः , वाक्-मनः चक्षुः श्रोत्र जिह्वा घ्राण रूपैः उच्छ्वास - निश्वास रूपेण बहिरागत्य  अस्मिन् प्रतिमायां चिरं सुखं तिष्ठतु  स्वाहा > . This is where the priamry research focus needs to be done, instead of talking light years away cosmos impacting us here, for which we dont have any facility -tools -paradigms to  explore ; or the real langauge skills -continuity of tradition to validate ( beyond faith - belief -heresay -personal experience of non-repeatable type).

If WE together, as Samskrutham team can come up with what really is this 'Prana-Pratishtaa', which is an integral part of this deliberation, then  it will be a revolution in global health care industry ; starting with the right understanding of what is 'Ayur-Veda as Ayur-Yoga:: Knowledge of Life -Span, Knowledge of Life -dynamics' using the ' real natural elements called 'Pancha bhoota tattvas and the natural sounds related to them'; What is Jyotisha as ' Jyotir-Veda / Jyotir-Yoga' ::   Knowledge of Light of Cosmos , Knowledge of Light-Life - dynamics, beleived as 'graha-chaara / muhurta'.

 If one wants to explore further the link line here, from upanishads , it may be worth to do so: वायुरनिल ममृत मथेदं भस्मान्तं शरीरं  . This provides the clue for the yo  and vo in the sutra.

This is a part the exploring Samskrutham as Vag-Yoga, the term used by Patanjali, quoting the authority of Rig-Veda. When Vag-Yoga is used as Vak-Tantram, the encoded language document ( Paribhashaa /Guhya bhashaa Sutra) results. Depending upon which traiditon and context the Rishi provides the instruction, the sutra differs in ' manufacturing technology'. The basic principle is same ! Rest is details of logistics, mandalas and the dravya-devataa paddhti.

4. There are other words  in the given sutra that need to be explained; and that demands a better  knowledge of specific tradition and more evidence of similar documents. Holding on to key things as  'rahasya' will not help progression in knowledge; nor will it help improve the pedagogy of discipline. If WE end up in the mode of  'Only I Know - Come to Me as the final saviour ', the situation needs serious review. The guardians of this Samskrutham tradition with   facial marks going by horizantal flow and vertical flows cannot be messed up/ meshed up to represent a ' overlap  symbol of crossed matrix symbolizng the  prisoned status' . We need to figure out how our traditions can be ' Purushartha prada' for each one of us -individually and as a team ( saha veeryam karavaavahai - saha nau bhunaktu).  

[BVK Sastry]


If some word is not written in the modern sanskrit dictionary, it doesn't mean it’s wrong. Kumaravyasa has used the word VaaGhe in Karnata Bhaarata Kathaa Manjari, Naabha NediStha maanava Rushi uses the same word in his prabhandas, many a times the words having VaaGha with upasargas & sandhis are repeated in Veda Bhaaga. Many of the ancient Yoga-Shastra, Deha-Shastra, Tatwa-Shastra Prabhandas in Brahmi, Prakruta, Tigala, Gurjara, Oriya use the word VaaGhe. Author of the verse is Agastya Muni himself. The story due to which he got the name Agastya also says aGha + astya, but common usage is agastya with alpa praana ga, rather than mahapraaana.

You have identified correctly that it is not in Samskrutam. Vedas are also not in Samskrutam! They are in Brahmi. I remember quotes of older scholars from Sringeri saying that never interpret Vedas from this modern Samskruta. Also say that Vaidika Vyakarana is different from Laukika  Vyakarana.

We use several symbols in maths , =, , ÷, ⁄, √, ≤, ≥, x, â, , , 𝔠, , , , , , , , , →, , etc., etc., Does a mathematical expression abide to Latin grammar? or to Greek grammar? or else to the English grammar? or to any of our languages? But also we work out on equations like 2x + 3y = 5, 3x + 2y = 2, etc., It is believed that Robert Recorde (1510-1588) invented the symbol '='. But it’s not true. Indian Sankhya used this long back. Several other symbols also there. Lot of Equations like Linear, Quadratic, Cubic, Quartic, Quintic, Diophantine, Intermediate, Transcendental, Functional, Differential, Integral, Parametric, etc., Here the equations have their own theory, properties, identities, Axioms, steps to solve & solutions. Different types of equations are there in Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Economics, Engineering, etc., These are all contributions from Indian Saankhyas! Foreigners studied them & prefixed their names as its inventors.

Veda Ganitha is of enormous value in application of Vedas. Veda Ganitha is just not the collection of speed mathematics techniques as we see nowadays. Just for the Jyotisha we have - "Sankalana, Vyakalana, Samikarana, Rekha, Jyamithi, Beeja, Astra, Sankhya, Keela" named 9 Ganithas. The other 6 Ganithas will be based on Sankalana, Vyakalana and Smikarana Ganithas. These 3 are important Ganitha Bhaagaas. I think there nearly 84-87 Veda Ganita Samikaranas (Sort of Equations) among which Srinivasa Ramanujan has tried to solve 3 or 4!!

Others 6 Ganihas will be based on these 3. Totally 9 Ganitha Praakaaras. Numerals also there from 1 to 9. Other than these there are 6 more Ganithas which is not related to this. So 15+1 = 16 Ganitha Praakaras are there in Vedas. Depending on dimensionality and application, the base system varies. Nowadays all Astrological calculations are in decimal, but in Vedas it’s in Hexadecimal & other base systems. Here base system is also not the one we are using. It’s entirely different. The ameliorating of evils are all dealt in Astra Ganitha, which is not so easy. One should be master of atleast one triplet among several Karma Samucchaya, Jnana Samucchaya & Tantra Samucchayas to change the fortune. Only Tantra can help in changing it. So this shloka is in Brahmi based Ganita Bhaasha!!

[Hemanth Kumar G]

I wish you may once again go through my previous mail. What is not there cannot be the basis . Vedas are self-sustaining and independent in its own space.  Shloka and mantra may be different or same, is not the concern here. Mantra is with its fields and powers, as u very well know it, and it will be mantra only for those who have inculcated it in oneself as per its laws and procedures. Otherwise it is all a mere shlokas or verses. What is implied here is that based on any other formats or calculations and schemes, Vedas when realized, it will give something else. But not what it is. Let us not go into all these scholarly arguments.

What I mean to say is that, based on any other versions and commentaries , Vedas cannot be understood. One of the key scheme underlying is Gayatri and Madhuchanda, and the reference values in the octaves for the  structural conformation.

It is as same as the genetic system with its octameric sheath, Every letter with its precursors, prefixes and suffixes have to be transcribed and the basis of this transcription is from the systems of Gayatri and Madhuchanda.

We cannot debate or argue based on systems elsewhere, however the great the work is, it has to be treated to give foundations for understanding the Vedas, but not to Understand the Vedas.

The logical system of constancy of values and thereby constancy of letters in its position , positional values, cyclic and combination, progression are all well laid. Unitary and Binary functions  and triplet formations and complementary systems are laid within.

So, the derivations and equations in the Vedas some have been developed independently elsewhere and are in use in today's world. But it is not derived from the Vedas or explained.

As Dr. BVK Sastry rightly pointed out, they were not Maharishis, but all such works emerged from men and women who had dedicated themselves. ( tapasya itself) . So today we need PhD scholars, who are dedicated.

For bringing out any subject in any platform there should be basic reason, it should be finding or observation. Because we all are good in questioning and arguing for the bad of the good and good of the bad, we have suppressed and killed many works.

However, i wish little patience and tolerance in us will certainly make it possible to avoid many human errors, before we come out in the public forum.

jnaanm  or wisdom of knowledge is from Crea (kriya) or processes oriented approaches and its final culmination is the Creation. Kriya is with reason and objective and clarity of thought and vision.

Can kriya itslef be a Karma??

[Krishnakumar M B]

Dear Friends,

I insist you to just go through this looooooooooooong thread just for the psudo-sublime and real-ridiculous stuff contained here. If anybody is bed and fed up with work-fatigue, I would prescribe this as a wholesome entertainer... But at never blame me for taxing your
patience :-)

[Shatavadhani R Ganesh]

Everybody gets only what they ought to get! A funny correlation already exists to the Vikata Vidambanaa done by Maha-Pandita. This is like a great Shardula due to VayoVruddhi becomes Uddanda & narrates its achievements of Khandita pada (hunting), by saying a story of Rabbit it attacked which had only 3 legs.

At that time the Rabbit tried to narrate its story to fear the Shardula: A three legged rabbit made himself a fourth leg from wood. The rabbit thought the Sun was too hot for comfort so he went to see what could be done. He went east at night to the place where the Sun would rise. When the Sun was half way up the Rabbit shot it with an arrow. As the Sun lay wounded on the ground the Rabbit took the white of the Suns eyes and made the clouds. He made the black part of the eyes into the sky, the kidneys into stars, and the liver into the Moon, and the heart into the night. "There!" said the Rabbit, "You will never be too hot again." Shardula said to Rabbit that you are in the state of Mano-Vyaadhi due to problems in Naramandala & ate it. As the Shardula ate the problematic Rabbit, it also gradually developed the same Vyaadhi. This Vyaadhi gets Ulbana in stages of Yuva to Vruddha. Later it also cultivates the habit of telling fake stories to its believers and becomes famous and called as Mruga-Raaja of the whole forest in the world. But it doesn’t know that its Vyapti is in Koopa & it is just like a Manduka floating in it.

So, “Never argue with a Maha-Pandita [ ?.. :-)) ], he will bring you down to his level by Naramandala-Mandana and do your Pada-Kandita with experience from Yuva to Vayo-Vruddi.”

[Hemanth Kumar G]

Ganeshji,

there is something called manufacturing defect.  It's incorrigible . So as we gauge you, it is good for you to  do the same.  If you have better findings and observations of your own, please enlighten us. Great ideas are born in the loo. It is a yogic posture.   when it is  looooooooooooong, the thread the is lost. .

Dog eats meat. but if one gives bone to it, it will enjoy biting it, if it is hungrry, it will certainly say ridiculous stuff.

I never thought, we were throwing such bones here.
It is good not to be at places where one cannot tolerate the environment.
We have been the victims of such great men who found these are worthless topics.
The basic attitudes are reflected in words.
Thank you for the chosen words.
The god has chosen you for this day.

[krishnakumar M B]

Namaste,

Got some insights on 4 types of Bhaagaakaaras used in Jeeva-Shaastra.
In that Khandita is one method. Calculation goes as follows:

E.g., Jeeva-Raashi = a + b, where a=Gunas, b=Mithya

Rule says the Samikarana for Jeeva-Raashi in beeja ganita as
a+a^2/b+(a+b)=(a^2+2ab+b^2)/2=(a+b)^2/b

In Anka Ganita, suitable substitutions give solution. If a=3, b=13
then 3 + 3^2/13 + (3+13) = (39+9+208)/13 = 256/13 means there are 256
Khandas where Bhaajaka is 13.

[Hemanth Kumar G]

No one seems to be commenting on my interpretation of August Muni's Srusti Rahsya Sutra . Let you realize that science in vedas is of relevance today to create the vital synergy between Science and Spirituality. I shall be happy to receive your comments.

[Prof PB Sharma]

Namaste

1.     A word of caution : Patience, Patience, Patience in furthering this debate. 'Debates Sans Sadhana-backing it, are Empty Sounds'.
If you have time and energy, please read the internet resource which brings out the position as of 1913, when Tantra - Sadhakas have expressed their open opinion and position on these topics.   Resource URL:  http://www.sacred-texts.com/tantra/sas/sas01.htm   [ - that is if one cannot access the original work and find it difficult to read the technical Samskrutham work of Tantra !].This thread is not the first or last in this topic. I am placing the text of this page below, at the end of the note,  for the benefit of those who may prefer to save it.

2. What is < psudo-sublime and real-ridiculous stuff > here ? There is a given text, which each scholar is making effort to interpret and share the understanding from different perspectives. For a moment, think : Why did a sage, like Agasthya, in sane mind < encrypt and encode> a statement in such a complex way ?

3.   Let us look at a more saner simpler, yet connected  document dealing on a similar topic : This is Patanjali's Yoga Sutra, dealing with expansion of consciousness, which in oher words, the secret of cosmos -life creation - multiplication and mergers.   Yoga-Sutra is  historic and well maintained, well commented ' open document'. The well known tradition is studying this text as a part of Darshana Shastra under the shadow of Samkhya school ! Why so?  Yoga is a discipline for  'Sadhana' and it is upfront declared as ' Anu-Shasana'. Some how that is ignored and the text is studied as  ' intellectual deliberation ' jijnaasaa' ?! Again, yoga-sutra is kept arms distance away from Tantra, which is a 'Sadhana -Shastra / A upadesha' ! Have we seen any one commenting on Yoga-Sutra from a Tantra perspective ? Despite the explicit sutra mentioning 'Mantra -Dhayana' in 4-1: janmashadhi-mantra-tapah-samadhijaa  siddhayah.  

Now, coming to the relevant point,    Please check Chapter 3 : 38 and 3-39 which start setting the foundation for the ' miracles' (Siddhi). In this segment, there are several sutras which cannot be decoded by applying rules of classical Samskrutham , Veda Brahmi et al. The real connection and culmination for all this being  4.34 -  purushartha shoonyanam gunaanaam pratiprasvah kaivalyam,svarropa pratishtaa vaa chitishakteriti.

What is Patanjali /Yoga-Sutrakara telling us here ? The  creation is an expression-expansion of consciousness (Chiti Shakti).  The text is providing a  clean technique (tantra) , well commented, structured made available for practice.  This resource predates the document of current deliberation as 'Sruhsti Rahasya'. Therefore,  it would be fair to state  that Agastya Risihi (Siddha Paramapara) must have had some special reason to make an encoding of what is so openly available  as Yoga and Tantra in a new Sutra -encoding? What is that newness? Why is that compelling  necessity ? 

  If you  follow the url given above, you will see how yoga needs help of Tantra and vice versa for decoding the given document -instruction. In the current period, great number of people speak about Yoga, Yoga-Philosophy  and Mediation with in a narrow band focus on just the second chapter -Yogaanga' and skipping  conveniently the criticalities of third chapter It is like many poets getting serious interest in describing the midriff of feminine form in a preferential way !

4. If we cannot understand such a given well established 'yoga' text with a continuity and a host of commentaries, how then can we say a judgment statement that the given document, postioning itself as a 'Tantra- Rahasya' to be a < psudo-sublime and real-ridiculous stuff >. In which case, at least for Yoga-Sutra /Patanjali- tradition, or Agasthya of the present document, one of the following forced conclusions will have to be attribued. This will be a more serious issue if the Patanjali of YogaSutra is the same person as one who is ascribed with the authorship of Mahabhashya commentary on Samskrutham  and Ayurveda treatise OR Agasthya is one of the Sapata-rishi's ! This should help us to consider seriously how efficient are the tools we have are sufficient for a proper analytic-interpretation of texts like the one given? How can one look at building a unifying perspectives from multiple disciplines in 360 degree capture of the tradition:  Ayurveda -Tantra - Vyakarana - Aagama-Purana- Vedanta, all combined in one word: 'Sadhana -Upasana /Tapas' (- all beyond Jijnaasaa /Tarka). Here are the emergent options to choose:

4a) Patanajli facilitated Ignorance perpetuation:   The author of text like Yoga-Sutra wrote some gibberish-formulas, to justify / defend / perpetuate what was inherited to his times; and later writers continued to pass on the same gibberish style with more and more complexity ! So we are more evolved and intelligent who can pass a judgement on these texts.

4b) Traditional schools made/ are playing a fraud-game of 'rahasya' in the name of Tradition:  the commentators held back providing the vital clues to decode the text; and the practicing Masters of Tradition felt that ' encoding and making the text more complex' is their way to safety in retaining their Supreme Spokes person authority on tradition. So, we are the conned ones suffering from the cheats of the yore !

4c) Our toolkit for analysis of given documents are having serious limitations in validating the associated understanding of a given text of tradition:   With the given set of tools, we are unable to understand an decode the given text ;  OR  we are using inaccurate set of tools for analysis of a given document. i.e we are looking at the wrong end of the horse with right tools  OR  we are looking at the right end of horse with wrong end of telescope ! OR we are thinking that we have a ' horse called ucchaishrvas' , but in reality it may just be a zebra (- a cross breed of horse and mule)!  In short, in our head and heart, logic and faith are cleavaged ; which we don’t how to reconcile beyond a patch up theory. This leads to a situation of partisan views in scholars expression, blocking open dialogue and furthering of knowledge. So, we are the confused lots, using straw to eat Pizza ! Or, as my good friend uses the simile : Taking the sick child to a gynecologist  when it should be taken to a pediatrician !

I hope this helps to bring down the strong animosities that seem to be building on this thread.

Regards
BVK Sastry
[http://www.sacred-texts.com/tantra/index.htm]

PB Sharmaji, Really it was a good try to interpret the Sutra. What I was thinking is about the word Shardhula, not dhula. What are the Yava & Shardula Sankhyas? Nikhanda, Khanda may be the intermediate results of Khandita pada.But what is pada? How it has to be divided? Because depending on the context, the division technique in Sankhya varies enormously. Which one to select with confidence?

Lot of other terminologies like Pandita, Mandita, Uddhanda, yava, yuva, vayo, Vruddhi, and also Samruddhi; what is Tola, Tuula ? Then the word Yavanikaakesha. Is it Yava + Nikaa + Kesha or Yavanikaa + kesha or Yava + Nikaakesha or Ya+va+Ni+kaa+ke+sha. Kesha is hair or kah+Eshah? Then the Kodanda Sankhya, is it Rama's bow or a person who has bow or Ko+Dandah?

Then again Vruddhi of the Labdha and providing bala to it. Which kind of bala? what is its Sankhya? Saptasya = 7, prasankya = Motta = Result, VaaGhe=7, but which Samikarana (Equation) out of 84 has to be formed here?

Next Yaavojwala = Yaavo+Jwala or Yaava+Ujwala? Sanskrit Sandhi Niyama doesn't work usually in these Saankhyas. Nikhanda, Khanda has to be used in an operation named baajai, which is not Bhaaja. Why the Naramandala ? Is it nervous system or Nara Sankhya + Mandala Sankhya? Yo + Yo + Vo + Vaa--> Anta --> These are indices of some bigger words or sentences or may relate to some Veda Mantra or Purana Prahasana or Brahmana. Is Vaanta to be linked to the next word Akshara, then what is its operation? After this operation, which has to be retained as Sthira part of Motta Sankhya which will show some Mantra Sankhya which has to be operated with Beeja Ganita Sutras, to get the Vyaktaavyata Sankhyas & to interpret its Roopa by Rekhaa Ganita Sutras to get exactly accurate knowledge of Srusti Rahasya of Moola Chaitanya.

Vaidhika BauthaShastra doesn't accept both Particle & Wave nature of light what is being used in Modern Physics.

Can you provide the link for the paper you have mentioned?
[Hemanth Kumar G]

Ganeshji,If the discussion is not worth can you please decode the following sample Padyas which are in Kannada. Please enlighten us with the glimpse of Avadhaana. This is also a Saankhya Sutra by Naabha Rushi:

[Hemanth Kumar G]


Dear Shri Hemant Ji,

I must express my profound gratitude to you for enlightening me about the mathematical foundation of Vedic Sutras and Slokas. You are absolutely right that the Sutra needs to be decoded using the mathematical basis. Being an engineering and technology student, I have tried to use the sanskrit words as they would reveal to a science and engineering student. I fully agree that the word "kesha" is the finest of the fine dimension one could physically identify as human hair which also connotes to the nano size particle which "dhool" the dust particle also represent.

I shall surely like to learn about mathematical decoding of the sutras. Could you please provide me some basic and fundamental basis of vedic decoding based on mathematics?

I shall be grateful to you.

I am also attaching the full text of my article which is coming up in the proceedings of the All India Science and Spiritual Quest Conference 2012 at IISc Bangalore on September 1-2, 2012 being organised by the Bhaktivedanta Institute, Kolkata, founded by the learned Scientist Swami Dr. T.D. Singh, the disciple of Prabhupada, the founder of ISKCON.

You may like to get further information about the above Conference from www.aissq.org.

[PROF. P.B. SHARMA]

Dear PB Sharmaji,

I don't have exact materials about these kind of Vedic Mathematics. But it's there in tala patras but with very very difficult script & language. It is hidden from the world for protection even during destruction of Earth & from Apaatraas. So, I always say that it has to be understood by 5 fold process viz. अध्ययन, जप, अनुष्ठान, उपासना, प्रयोग, उपसंहार || More details can be discussed only in face to face mode.

[Hemanth Kumar G]
Namaste

1. Vedic Maths:  Saamkhya Darshana Is philosophy;  SaMkhyaa Darshana is science of measures and Analytics: covering operational analytics of enumerated entities:  pramAna - pramiti  -  saMkalana vyavajalana - gunana bhaajana - vRuddhi- kshaya haara aMsha Et all. In one word all these are covered under the scope of the word - bruMhaNa pariNaama vivarta-= change  transformation modalities and measures.

The saMkhyaa Shaastra depends on the primary postulated listing under philosophical categories by Saamkhya darshana. The difference between two disciplines is analogous to: study of properties of matter.   And. Study of enumerating nature of matter. 

While both disciplines are needed, I thought that debate here was in one specific area. 

Just clarifying.

Regards

BVK Sastry

Namaste,

 You have raised excellent questions in connection with my answer from the core of Vedic Science.

 In fact I had sent an answer a little earlier that covers the points raised  here but your emphasis is truly appreciated and I will give you the pertinent findings from my research,  point wise, but the preamble is  necessary to understand those points..

 The 'Age of the Vedas' as understood today is not correct. Lokmanya Tilak in his book "Arctic home in the Vedas" and the "Orion" had given a mathematical  analysis, agreed with by several Astronomers / Cosmologists of his period, that Vedic civilization flourished  in the Arctic region more than 20000 years ago. The confirmation of this "finding " is in both the Rigveda and  the Avesta (Zoroastrian) as deduced by Lokmanya Tilak from the enigmatic descriptions that was mutilated by several translators because of chronological misunderstandings. The Nakshatra devatyam passage in the Atharvan too identifies this period through astronomical positions. (Since it requires a long explanation please read my article in World Affairs attached that explains in detail. ) There is also scientific evidence of the pre and post glacial geological ice core alalysis dating back 19000 years.

 About ten thousand years ago (with Magha on the Ascendant) the Arctic glacial melt created the famous floods that is acknowledged historically by several world communities and as a result the Vedic and Avestan civilisation  there was disrupted but the survivors resurrected the entire Vedic and Avestan compositions intact due to the brahmanicla tradition of carrying forward through generations the oral renderings.

 As a result there has been a very critical transitional gap where interpretation of Vedic thought has undergone a trauma. Sankhyakarika the 4 Vedas, Brahma Sutra, over 200 upanishads and many other preglacial compositions were resurrected but the traumatic gap gave a very different twist to the interrettaions which was further mutilated by occidental translators like max Muller, Whitney  etc.

 In this background let me answer your 4 points.

 1. In the post glacial era the true Sankhyan resurrection failed for two reasons. In Sankhya ,Kapillamuni had composed the Sutras with the numerical values of Guna interaction counts as axiomatic cycles of ten counts . 50 meant 10^50  like logarithmic index values as we understand today. No translator understood it. Next the Adi Sankaracharya defined Sankayakarika of Kapillamuni as atheistic as it did not acknowledge the pre eminence of Vedas over Aptavachanathu or axiomatic statements. There was a more serious denominational cleavage due to the glacial gap in the form of splitting the trinity of the three Gunas epitomised as Vishnu, Brahma and Siva as the Satva, Raja and Thama states of universal balance. The Adi Sankracharaya eulogised the Siva Sakti aspects in preference to the others which put the cap on Sankhya and sent it the Vaishnavite alters but without understanding the 10^50 numerics that defined the Universe.

 If you want to really understand an intellactually great leap in scientific thinking in Sankhya (33000 years ago)  please read my decoded version of Sankhya-Final pdf attached ,very very carefully for I can declare most emphatically there are no parallels in any other scientific treatise. As a scientific researcher I say this with the greatest pleasure and pride  that Sankhya forms  the last word in Physics and places Vedic Science on the pinnacle of universal knowledge.forever.

 2. Gaudapada's rendition of Ishwarakrishna's Sankhya again drove Sankhyan logic into the realms of misunderstanding that made the entire 68 Sutras un-understandable.  Gaudapada too did not realise the real meaning of Sankhyan numbers and his  mistranslated version gave a clue for all other translators to follow.  See comparison.pdf to see the errors.

 3. Swami Vivekananda was the first intellectual in recent times to raise Sankhya to the level of scientific excellence in the World Congress of Religions in the US. But unfortunately no one pursued it  here but ironically Tesla the great inventor dialogued with Swami Vivekananda and borrowed the word Akash to be used in his theories using power from space. Acharya Bharathi Theertha Krishna ( Puri Matt) acknowledged the Vedic mathematical specialities and promoted it boldly but alas his chelas burnt some of his most magnificent writings in Physics etc on the premise that it was anti religious. There a remore but enougg to make apoint  now.

 4. This question is truly exhilarating to answer. The three Gunas have been understood to be mere characteristics and no importance was given to it as  it should have been. The three Gunas represent the eternal dynamism in the  Universe as a perpetual harmonic oscillator (that Physics has yet to derive) that literally sweeps through every aspevt of Universal manifestaion. It is mathematically perfect and lays the foundation for the creation, maintenance and transmisiin of eternal power in the Universe. See the PHO state mathematics on my website if interested. Since it is fundamental driving force for all manifestation, It can be identified as a part of all manifestation precisely.

 In Ayurveda  the Thama is the Khapha aspect, Raja is the Pitha aspect and Satva is the Vata aspect
  and all are numerical defined to perfection. The heart , pulse , breathing cycles are precisely defined in mathematical terms from a mouse to mighty elephant for all are governed by the Guna dynmamics and operated on the Swabhava or self similar principle where only time varies according to the
 size.

 The celestial dynamics to are again operataed by the three Guna dynamics (See my Sankhya slide ppt on my website for the graph of gravitatin phenomenon based on Gunas (PHO states)

 Astrology too is operated by the same Guna dynamice but named differently. Spirituality too is defined mathematically through the three Gunas in various states. Genetics has surprises for the Medical profession. Each genetic unit has 10^18 interactive states that Medical science calls JUNK genes barring the 10 ^9 they have physically  found. The karma theory is founded on thye 10^18 states that can never be destroyed and always exists in space and a person born at a particular time and place OCCUPIES these as we are all holographic forms and astrological calculations
 identifies who we are and how we go through life etc. My website contaims a lot of detailed info which you can go through instead of my repeating it here.

 I hope I have given you enough of MY replies to the questions you have posed. But please do explore the web.for more details.

 Cheers
 GS
 G.Srinivasan.
 Kotagiri.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Namaste Srinivasanji,

Aaptavachana is not only the ultimate Pramaana. Tarka Shastra has 4 & Meemamsa has 6, where Aaptavachana is also  included.

NO TWO DIFFERENT THEORIES CAN EVER BE CREATED FROM THE SAME AXIOMATIC LOGIC, HENCE NO OTHER THEORY CAN EVER EXIST IN THIS UNIVERSE USING 1 and 2, NO THEORY STARTING FROM 3 , 4  etc CAN EVER BE BASED ON AXIOMATIC LOGIC. All these statements are not at all proper ones. Veda is One. Thousands of theories emerged from Vedas and all those theories are existing now also.

Most of the Vaidhikaas & Meemamsakaas doesn't Arctic glacial melt before ten thousand years! Before making a sentence like "Gaudapaada didn't realize the real meaning of Sankyam numbers" confirm that what part of the work is really by Gaudapaada & how much is Prakshipta!!

The Sankhyakaarika present now is not the original work of Kapila, the son of Brahma. Its just translations of translations. His age is also not just 33,000 years!! Original Saankhyaa is not just the collection of some sutras which is available now as Sankhya Darshanam!

Original version of Brahma Sutras proposed by Jagadguru Shankaracharya is a collection 3 distinct methods termed as Sankhya-Traya. Saying that Shankaracharya was also ignorant in terms of Sankhyans & their work is not acceptable. In comparison.pdf, the comment that "Shankaracharya was mistaken that Sankhyakarika was Post-Vedic" is not proper. What is pre or post vedic? Its foreign view that 20,000 or 33,000 years, but not Indian!
  
Real Saankhyans existed during Sage Shankara's age. All got surrendered in front of Vaidhika Matha. In lots of Vaakhyartha Gostis & Kumbha Melas from lakhs of years, it is seen that the arguments of
Saankhya never considered more than Vaidhika. This is because of the fact that unbound & uncontrolled growth of Saankhyans lead to lots of destructions many a times. So almost all the original works of Saankhyans has been retrieved back by Prakruti. Its the rule of Vaidhika Bhautashaastra that, which causes Vikruti in Prakruti, will be made Supta. Again these basic Vaakhya emerged later as Prakruti Vaada, Vikruti Vaada, Maaya Vaada and also Prakruti-Vikruti-Maaya
Vaada.

Veda Ganitha is of enormous value in application of Vedas. Veda Ganitha is just not the collection of speed mathematics techniques as we see nowadays. Just for the Jyotisha we have - "Sankalana, Vyakalana, Samikarana, Rekha, Jyamithi, Beeja, Astra, Sankhya, Keela" named 9 Ganithas. The other 6 Ganithas will be based on Sankalana, Vyakalana and Smikarana Ganithas. These 3 are important Ganitha Bhaagaas. There are 84 Veda Ganita Samikaranas which were used by Saankhyaans to explain Vedas. Among these in modern times, Bhaskaracharya solved 7 & Srinivasa Ramanujan has tried to understand & solve 3 among those 7!!

The satva, raja, tama guna's are borrowed to Sankhakaarika by the Darshana called "Trigunaatmaka Vaada", which was proposed from Vedas.

The interpretation for the repetition count like 2400 or 2401 is just interpolation. Lot's of mantras are lost, some have been intentionally changed. Also there are Supta Mantras of Rigveda found by many
Brahmarshis, where lot of other mantras and many more repetitions are there.

More details on Ganita has been discussed in [Srusti Rahasya Sutra by Agastya Muni] thread of FISH. I would like G. Srinivasanji to read those posts and put forward your views.

[Hemanth Kumar G]

Learned Members may I ask you  an extremely simple but pertinent question before I give you a telling reply  that can silence intellectuals who do not understand REALITY as the very foundation of our existence.

Can anybody in this august audience explain why when you drop of a chair or a 100 meter cliff  you ALWAYS fall at the rate of 4.96  meters/ second ? And also explain why that rate does not change whether you recite the name of your devout lord a thousand times or recite the Gayatri infinite times?  And also have the intellectual courage to admit that actions in reality FOLLOWS ONE  LAW == NOT YOUR IMAGINED LAWS>

Shree Hemanth Kumar you have said a lot of things BUT can you EXPLAIN why the above happpens whether you be ADI SHANKARACHARYA or MERE G SRINIVASAN.

If  you CAN   then I AM TOTALLY WILLING TO PURSUE ANY RESPONSE FROM YOU OR ELSE PLEASE EXCLUDE YOURSELF FROM INTERACTING WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ARE TRYING TO ESTABLISH REALITY IN ITS REAL FORM AS  A TRUISM OF VEDIC SCIENCE.AND DO NOT OBSTRUCT CONSTRUCTIVE EXPLANATIONS WITH IRRELEVANT STATEMENTS.

I wouls also like to make a very important statement to the ORGANISERS of this forum that if constructive knowledge is not allowed to be presented without obstruction from sources with self motivated agendas I would deem it a privilege to withdraw from all future interaction from this form that encourages an obstructive environment.

Knowledge SETS YOU FREE and EVEN A CHILD OF THE UNIVERSE CAN HAVE THAT KNOWLEDGE AS SRI KRISHNA DID.
Hence you members of this august forum please think twice before you hurl inanities as facts for that will only restrict truth from flourishing.

Cheers
G.Srinivasan.
Kotagiri.

Esteemed Colleagues,

So far I was afraid to address so, hope the time is ripe to address you all so.

Srinivasan came up with certain Geo positional logic's as expressed by nationalist leader. If i am not mistaken, as the glaciation was nearing an end, reverse migration process again had occurred. Finland has a history of 1,30,000 years or more as evidenced by the pre glaciation period ( Wolf Caves), if i am not mistaken, it had a story of existence of human race for over 40,000  years.

where do we lead our calculations to?

what is the point of reference we have to make such arguments. Mahabharat period itself had off shoot from such paleolithic traditions, which we say is the last Yug or epoch before us.

The moon itself is in the process of distancing from this planet, every year at the rate of 1.5 inches per year and earths day time is increasing by 0.0018 second every 100 years. cant we then look at a "kalpa" when the earth and the moon were close to each other and the gravitational force was phenomenally lower . It required huge body sizes with the feet drifting inside the body surface for grip on this earth. Cant we be confident about the huge human forms. later on the huge dump from the satellite system that created the mountain systems  and the little ball drifting away.? a new orientation in the planetary position as kaushika Hora explains?

From here to the long quest for new perceptions on the space and the universal system is elaborated concisely in the gayatri system.

I have been trying convey that " sankhyam" was one of the systems that existed for long years  and is a well developed scheme of positional values, independent variables, progression and so on, Who has understood it or not or who gave commentaries to it does not matter. The system exists with all its functional aspects and schemes and was  extrapolated to give rise to more intricate systems, unitary and binary systems and more Geo metric systems. Culmination of all these was clearly graphic representation of sound or Sabda , Nada  or  reverberations WITH BASE LINES, or Dhwani that have impulses.

It is from such a graphic format with vertical and horizontal axis together with N' dimensions as in space that such Tri forms of sound was formulated into Vang. Vang further structured with Gayatri Scheme for precision and abstraction.

Now, if we cannot understand such an intricate formations that is the basis of Vang form in which Vedas were drawn, let us not  perceive that what we talk is ultimate.

None of the vedic systems are straight linear positioning of numerical values, as it IS BASED ON A UNIVERSAL CONSTANT  WHICH HAS ITS  CO 0RDINATES AND RECIPROCAL VALUES OF STATIC FUNCTION AND OPERATIONAL FUNCTION.

AGASTHYA SCHOOL THAT LASTED OVER A FEW THOUSANDS OF YEARS HAD DEVELOPED THEIR OWN SYSTEMATIC KNOWLEDGE. WAS AGASTHYA DEPENDENT ON THE VEDIC SYSTEM?  We should try to understand the Aborigines and their traditions of Gympie  and have a a rel look into "Meru". Why only arctic ? We should be grateful to kabi tribes for holding a tradition of over 50000 years.

So based on the constellations today,  can we draw the date of any specific period of the remote past?

Should we turn blind to the vast considerations that are available around us?

All efforts by Hemanth Kumar or Srinivasan or the strong bases of theoretical aspects brought in by  Arun Upadhyaya   are worth, but how can we draw a conclusive structure?

Let us not be in a hurry to position modern science and the theories or quantum physics into the vedic system or the other other way round.

Let us try to find proper explanations from the vedas and derive results. Results speak it loud and are self-supporting evidences.
[Krishnakumar M B]

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